NLP is a load of crap!

[ballzac]

So a friend of mine is really into "neuro-linguistic programming", or NLP for short. I didn't really have any idea what it was, but I figured it was subliminal messages type thing. Anyway, he gave me tickets to a three day seminar thing (he gets paid for every person who then pays for the 'next level' seminar after the first one). I was very skeptical of this type of thing, but I like to try things out for myself so that I know from personal experience. I dragged my girlfriend along with me.

At first it was kind of entertaining and I was going along with the silly exercises in good humour...but then came the pseudo-science: Arrrrgh... If there's one thing I REALLY, REALLY hate, it's pseudo science. Anyway, first of all this guy, Christopher Howard his name is, was quoting Einstein and other famous scientists. These statements were taken completely out of context and used to support ideas that the people being quoted probably would not have agreed with. As a person who has a great deal of respect for Einstein and other famous scientists, I found this to be severely insulting, both to my intelligence, and to those being quoted.

Okay, so I could deal with that. Then this guy starts drawing a diagram, a circle with arrows, and saying how what we percieve is within the circle and what we could have if we reprogrammed our neural pathways is outside the circle. Okay, unnecessary diagrams, and more pseudoscientific talk. It was starting to look very worrying. Then, he asks who has seen either 'What the Bleep Do We Know', or 'The Secret'. I put up my hand. Then he tells us he is going to explain to us the 'quantum physics' behind the ideas in those movies...after the break.

Thank God, the break gave me the chance to grab my girlfriend and escape before I had to listen to any more bullshit. I have not seen 'The Secret', but I have seen 'What the Bleep Do We Know', and it was full of the same sort of pseudo-science bullshit, and that sort of stuff makes me angry. I don't mind people believing in stuff, that is their choice. I don't believe in astrology, but I'm not going to have a problem with people believing in it because it's got nothing to do with me. But as soon as people use terminology or concepts from science to try to support their nonsense, they are stepping on my toes, and they have no business doing that. It was going to make me so angry to sit there and listen to someone who knows nothing about physics 'explain' how quantum mechanics ties in with his philosophy.

Anyway, there are other reasons that I left. He got us to do all these exercises where we'd write down things that we want out of life or something like that, and then we'd have to find someone we've never met and read our list to them...and then high-five them and say, "your awesome!" hehehe. Anyway, the last time this happened before the break, he suddenly informed us that the person we had just met was our partner for the weekend. Now this was all really cleverly orchestrated to manipulate us into remaining for the whole weekend. We were told to tell our partner why we were going to give it our 100% etc. and I thought, I'm not definately going to stay, but there is no point in being here if I'm not going to give it 100% while I'm here. I basically said that to my 'partner' except for the not definately staying bit. Anyway, then we had to raise our hands and make an oath to our partners that we were going to make sure that they made it through the whole weekend and whatnot, blah blah blah. Anyway, it's hard to refuse to do that after you've just said you will participate 100%, because if you don't say the oath then you're not participating 100%. And it's all happening so fast that you don't have time to think, Hey, maybe I'm not comfortable making promises like that to someone I don't know. In fact, I can't make a promise like that because I am not sure I'm going to be here for the whole weekend.

Anyway, it was hard to get my girlfriend to leave with me, not because she wanted to stay, but because she felt bad about ditching her 'partner' when she'd just made all of these promises to him. I explained that that was one of the very reasons I did want to leave, and I convinced her and we left. I felt like shit afterwards. I felt emotionally drained...and I was only there for two hours. The full thing went from 9AM-11PM on friday sat and sunday. I would've been a fucking Zombie by then.

Y'know, maybe if I had've stayed I would have learnt how to be rich and happy etc., but there's something about free-agency that I feel is more important than happiness. And really, i'm not that unhappy with where my life is at the moment and the direction it's going.

[apothecary]

Glad you left bz, sound like a classic scam to me, the pyramid scheme of selling tickets like that should be an automatic giveaway.

[RonnySimulacrum]

I have good friends that are certainly critical of elements of NLP, but still claim to have got a lot out of some programmes. I have not done it in is pure form myself, but did do some post EGA workshops with Tim Paynes which used some elements of NLP, and i know the group and myself did get a lot out of them.

but time is such a good mentor in many way.

Edited May 27, 2007 by RonnySimulacrum

[ballzac]

Yeah, not to mention that in their brochure that they handed out while we were in there was a pyramid with the seminar we were at on the bottom and a weeklong one that you have to pay for called "billionaire bootcamp" on the next level...the one at the top was training to be an NLP practitioner or some shit.

[apothecary]

Like from the Simpsons

"Is this a pyramid scam?"

"No, our patented trapezoid technology makes sure of that!"

[occidentalis]

There are some neat tricks that NLP teaches that allow you to 'program' or change the way you think about things - but these are kind of common sense (ie create cognitive and emotional associations) and not hard to find with google and without the associated cult like bullshit.

The Landmark Forum is another program that I would urge people to be very careful of as while it can certainly be of benefit to some people it comes at a very high financial cost and has strong cult-like aspects, which I have experienced when someone close to me became 'involved'.

[benjahman]

Sounds all round like a rubbish "seminar", pyramid schemes should always get the alarm bells ringing. Definitely a pretty exploitative misuse of trust exercises for $$ profit too. However, I think its pretty hasty painting a whole discipline with the same brush on account of one person/ one group of people misusing/abusing techniques for personal financial gain. I think there are amazing people and wankers from all walks of life and likewise in all professions. NLP is no different (perhaps it does have a statistically higher percentage of wankers however ) but that's not to say that the discipline is complete crap, at least not for everyone (everyones different, everything's subjective). No doubt (IMO) there are some flawed aspects of NLP but it does seem that there is a lot to gain for some people there also (NOT in a financial sense, this is missing the point. In a self therapeutic becoming aware of ones negative loops then breaking them and taking control of ones life sense as well as sometimes improved communication with others). This is behavioral change I've observed in a couple of mates who did some NLP work a couple of years ago, who interestingly enough made similar comments to Ronny's friends in that they were selective in what they took on board on how they employed it in their day to day lives. So I've seen it do good things, but from what little I've read about it its perfectly capable of pretty harmful application as well. For me personally I think if I were ever to explore a discipline like this, finding the right teacher would be absolutely paramount.

Edited May 27, 2007 by benjahman

[XipeTotec]

I think the concepts behind NLP have some real strength...maybe it is the way that it has been presented to you that is the problem. if u r interested in knowing more, without the evangelistic type front... maybe try an old book called pyscho cybernetics, or books by harry alder (ive only read one though, so im not sure what they r all like)

Edited May 27, 2007 by shroomytoonos

[ballzac]

I think the concepts behind NLP have some real strength...maybe it is the way that it has been presented to you that is the problem. if u r interested in knowing more, without the evangelistic type front... maybe try an old book called pyscho cybernetics, or books by harry alder (ive only read one though, so im not sure what they r all like)

I actually have done a little bit of research on NLP since then, and it all seems to be that pseudo-science crap. I don't doubt that some of the techniques will have a real effect. The power of suggestion is a scientifically proven effect. But explaining it as "deleting neural pathways" etc. is unnecessary. Like Creach said, there's some neat tricks, but you don't need the cult aspect attached to it.

This is the sort of shit

 

It's just absolute bullshit. Using the word 'quantum' and the word 'neural' does NOT make her opinions more scientific

[Siggor]

i have some of chris howards cds the only problem i seen with it that it was too marketed, like at the start of each session there was a type of empowerment, feelgood, type of music, and it turned me off listening to the rest of it, though the info was good stuff actually about nlp, he couldn't deliver it that well. i guess that we just have to cut through other peoples bullshit to get to the good stuff.

[Hagakure]

i too hate pseudoscience.

people who promote pseudoscience (perhaps they believe it, perhaps they are after cash) often justify their ideas by throwing in popular buzzwords that sound scientific.

NLP, quantum, genetic and DNA are some that pop up.

there is a face cream on the market called DNA something. nonsense buzzword usage.

if any ladies want to rub some DNA into their faces i can help them out with my own patented DNA mix.

i should say, considering the forum i am typing this in, that while mckenna wasnt too bad, a lot of his followers are serial buzzword droppers without understanding the concepts behind them.

so yeah, while a lot of nlp promoters are absolutely full of shit, nlp itself can be very powerfull

 

 

Edited May 28, 2007 by Hagakure

[cisumevil]

if any ladies want to rub some DNA into their faces i can help them out with my own patented DNA mix.

Haha lmao!

[nabraxas]

the course you attended seems to be a money making scam disguised as NLP.

As others have mentioned, there are some valid techniques behind NLP.

Therefore the definitive statement that "NLP is a load of crap" can be considered meaningless.

[ballzac]

Hey, I never said that none of the techniques used in NLP work. The power of suggestion is an extraordinary principle, and the effects of hypnosis have been well documented in studies that have been published in respected journals. The problem I have with nlp, is that the pseudo-science aspect seems to be intrisic and common to nlp in general. The 'theory' behind nlp is not scientific. Also, admittedly I have done only a little research, but I have yet to find anything from a reputable source that says nlp is effective. I would love to read an article in the Lancet that confirms what my friend told me, that is, that nlp can cure cancer. But even then, it won't help me get over the pseudo-science of it. If it is really that effective, the scientic community will pick it up and develop it into something even greater. See, the beauty of science is that it can actually be used to discover new things and develop ideas into larger ones. Whereas pseudo-scientific field are naturally static because, even if it works, the practitioners do not understand why because their understanding of it is invalid.

If I make up something, let's call it "quantum wave teleportation", and I claim I can use it to magically get me to Europe, then I say a few scientific words and get on a plane and fly to Europe. I can't say that "quantum wave teleportation" got me to Europe. I'd be using one thing, good aeronautic engineering and good piloting, and hiding it behind another. My point is, that hypnosis is already something, calling it nlp and using scientific words that have nothing to do with hypnosis or the way the mind works is bull. So I stand by my statement that nlp is a load of crap.

Hagakure, those youtube vids you posted are great.

[apothecary]

If I make up something, let's call it "quantum wave teleportation", and I claim I can use it to magically get me to Europe

Hmm your ideas intrigue me and I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter...

[ballzac]

Hagakure, looking up Derren Brown, it appears that he is an illusionist first and foremost. What I see in those videos is either trickery or standard quick induction hypnosis. The girl with the black car looks real, I'm unsure about the one with simon pegg. Anyway, although some of these techniques are used in nlp, I don't see anywhere that Brown claims that he is using nlp, and according to wiki (which I don't take as set in stone) he claims NOT to use nlp.

The reason I can be a little skeptical of things like the bmx bit is firstly that I don't really know if suggestion really works the way he was claiming at the end. I think the colour changing was more what I would consider 'normal' suggestion. Also, David copperfield has done many tricks where someone appears to have written something different or whatnot. Then again, maybe HE is using hypnosis to make it look like he's a good magician...just like how some psychics have accused James Randi of using real psychic powers in the attempt to discredit psychics, hehehehehe. And on top of all that, Simon Pegg's an actor.

[Hagakure]

here is another derren brown video i have posted before on this forum

 

the whole rapport, dazzle, trance, suggest system is key to the milton or meta model in NLP.

the technique with the girl and the colours is another key technique and a friend of mine has had it performed on her to help with a phobia with, so far, greater success than all other therapies.

so yeah, derren brown does use NLP techniques.

at the end of the day, im not defending any of the pseudoscience bullshit artists you are attacking. all im saying is that NLP is used as a vehicle to push a lot of peoples bullshit but that doesnt mean there arent people out there actually using it successfully.

Edited May 29, 2007 by Hagakure

[XipeTotec]

the whole rapport, dazzle, trance, suggest system is key to the milton or meta model in NLP.

so yeah, derren brown does use NLP techniques.

even though the areas of NLP and hypnotism cross, especially in regards to perception and "map", and NLP in some ways could be considered self hypnosis, i would not regard what derran brown did in that video to be NLP.

[Hagakure]

i would disagree shroomy and state that some of the techniques he used are common in NLP.

rapport

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapport_(NLP)

anchoring

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring_(NLP)

some nlp people talking about pattern breaking

http://www.sueknight.co.uk/AskSK/sa2/sa237.htm

more info on swish patterns

http://www.renewal.ca/nlp29.htm

[ballzac]

at the end of the day, im not defending any of the pseudoscience bullshit artists you are attacking.

I don't doubt that. But from my limited knowledge, it appears that nlp is rooted in pseudoscience, and as these techniques (hypnotic suggestion etc.) have existed outside of - and for longer than - nlp, I don't know why you describe them as nlp techniques.

[Vertmorpheus]

I figure anyone that has worked out anything all that beneficial to me as an organism will just let me know out of good manners... if it's such an important secret, why do you need cash to share it? And if it can make you that much money, that much freedom...why are you pissing about in some community hall with a whiteboard and a bunch of dodgy handouts.

Scientologists at least give you free OJ and an IQ test (that tends to find, remarkably enough, that you are even brighter than you realised and how you have all that untapped potential and bla, bla, bla).

Having an unreasonable faith in the powers of make believe is a common trap to fall into... check out the nearest pagans in the park for that at its finest (not true in all cases, of course...but ya know which ones I mean eh?). You can creatively visualise in all the depth and feeling you can muster getting the promotion, getting the new car, getting the big bank balance.. hey, it might even work. But if you pay attn. just a little longer, you can work the visualisation back to what you should actually have a crack at DOING to get what you want. If this stuff was pure gold, animals wouldnt graze all day theyd just sit there thinking "hmmm... i am a worthy, unique and valuable bovine and the grass should come to me, naturally, with no effort"... and gnomes would chuck lucerne and pumpkins at them every few hours.

But sitting around thinking "this is all shit and I'll never be anything worthwhile" isn't real helpful either. Of course, some days feel like poo and then something happens that just blows you away, life lines up and leaves you smiling for the rest of the day...which theoretically shouldnt ever happen, if we only ever recieve what we feel we are entitled to.It's like dr phil and his authentic self... yeah great man...what if my authentic self is a cannibal? A rabid housing developer? Or just a bit of a dickhead? (hint...if you said yes to all three options, you should start your OWN motivational speaking tour!)

I think the ticket in all these ideas and theories is to take note of the bits that seem true to you already (usually the common sense bits right at the start, or sandwiched into a rant about some outlandish faery tale crap)... examine why they are true to you.

We have entire sections of stores devoted to selling these books, whole convention centres being stuffed with plebs keen to climb the ladder, websites full of inspirational dvds n cd's...weight loss clinics, meal replacements, sensuality enhancing gels for sex... all this shit... and as a culture we seem to be fatter, unhealthier, unhappier, and in more debt than ever before.

If any of these guru types had any real sense, they'd just tell you to check out study options... investment options... winding back your lifestyle to fit your finances.. all that. But no... the key to making more money it seems, is to send some arsehole 6 months wages, and then spend the next year telling anyone within earshot that you are privy to the secrets of the ages. it says a lot that those that get into cheesy shit like this, the seminar junkies...tend to have been to all the big ones for the last 10 years or whatever...they have all the books from im ok youre too poor to dianetics and beyond... not to mention the amway/nutrimetics/tupperware they will try to sign you up as a dealer of if ya not careful.

And thru all that, they still have fuck all money...thats why theyre still talkin to a mensch like me

bah, scumbag...

GD

[XipeTotec]

i would disagree shroomy and state that some of the techniques he used are common in NLP.

yes, they may be used in NLP. but they are derived from techniques of hypnosis. It really comes down to context, and I think under this context, it would be considered hypnosis rather than NLP.

Edited May 29, 2007 by shroomytoonos

[Hagakure]

touche shroomy.

i concede a point.

context is indeed important. just because i use shipbuilding techniques to build a house, doesnt mean i am ship building.

but what if it is a conventional looking house that floats on water? or what if it is a house on solid ground that looks like a ship?

people will draw the line between the house and the ship built with the same techniques in very different ways.

is NLP only NLP when it is a personal development system? what is it then if the same techniques are used to make more problems for the patient and impede development? what if the techniques are used to steal a persons wallet?

i guess i call that video nlp because when i found out about derren brown i mostly learnt from nlp sources about how he was doing various things. someone learning from people calling themselves hypnotists would naturally call the same techniques hypnotism.

regardless let me make the following case to ballzac

1) nlp uses certain techniques

i can point you to many sites and resources for nlp that talk about these techniques in detail and probably put you in contact with nlp practitioners that use them

2) these specific techniques have been shown to be effective

shown you a couple of quick videos and can provide anecdotal evidence of experiences of friends.

if you accept 1) and 2) you have to accept 3) not all of nlp is bullshit

time for me to stop writing forum posts for tonight i think. try not to spend too long each night. will come back to this thread later.

[ballzac]

I fail to how youtube videos and anecdotal evidence constitutes proof, but...

I think mainly we are disagreeing on a more philosophical level. I feel that any field that explains it's effects using dodgy science is not worth listening to. As far as you're concerned, if some of it works, then it can't all be bullshit. But I just don't want a bar of something that operates that way. Maybe I need to find an nlp practitioner who can cure me of my pseudoscience phobia...bit of a catch twenty-two really, hehe.

But yeah, I still stand by my reasoning that all of these techniques have existed for...ooh, probably a couple of hundred centuries, and in a more scientific setting as well. Just because thirty years ago some guy takes these principles and makes up nonsense to explain it and calls it nlp, doesn't make nlp anything special.

[Hagakure]

dammit, you are making me break my no more forum for tonight rule ballzac

ah well, short posts only

how is anchoring pseudoscience?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring_(NLP)

it is really the extension and development of the work of pavlov and his dogs.

it is also a key technique in NLP

System A uses technique Z

if technique Z works, some of system A works

If some of system A works, it is not completely bullshit