Darklight Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 Oh all bloody right, I can't keep it to myself any longer, and I don't know where to startNo, we don't have plants in culture. No we don't have them for sale. It's no longer a pure commercial project, and Torsten and I have agreed to throw it all to the winds and make all our data public.In fact the whole bloody things got so complex I've pulled in some extra help, in the form of some serious analysis data, and a serious TC person ( I know yer watching there cob )who is faaar more knowledgable than I on the topic of chem and TC researchSo we decided to put a website up. Yes I know I've promised that before on different topics rolleyes: but this one is on the boil. It's not ready yet, and I was initially reluctant to release too much info too early unless we get some sort of result, as I don't want ppl to think the species is safe until it is. And I'd rather ppl not waste valuable genetic material unless it looks like they have a chance with it. But the work is snowballing, and so far our data hasn't given us much in the way of a clue. We hope that will changeWe've formed a small working group, people with various areas of expertise, who are currently crunching the data we've got. What we're looking for is someone with loads of experience in mineral toxicity and deficiency in plants- the obscure stuff. Once the site is up, one might come along anyhow, but if someone we know is already here so much the betterWe're also interested in people's experiences with growing Acacia phlebophylla in cultivation- especially the older specimens. If you care to share, you can do it here. Any submissions accepted for inclusions on the site will receive acknowledgement.As I said, this is no longer a commercial project. If we produce sale plants from TC it is pointless unless we can guarantee that those plants will survive cultivation. In fact, unless we can work out the problem, having plants from any source could well be pointless unless you can guarantee them in cultivation.The data we are currently processing may assist in this.All tissue culture media we try- and their results- will be posted on the website in the hope that someone more experienced than myself will be able to interpret the results and make further progress in the event that we can't. And the cultivation data we get will be likewise posted. In fact anything that looks remotely like useful data will prolly get posted there eventuallyThis is now a purely scientific project ( so I can't get up anyone else for asking details )Thanks to Torsten and Daniel at SAB for all their hard work and input over the years, and to the other working group members- many of whom wish to remain anonymous. Wish us luck https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=&key=ed93ee4b8a158835e0af19ead9c794b11af03de360911f7858b9da338588c45d Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklight Posted September 6, 2003 Author Share Posted September 6, 2003 Soil data is in PPM and %. Leaf data is in %. They don't measure exactly the same things, and as the tissue culture media data is in uM we're crunching numbers frantically looking for correlationsRe. leaf data- *column 1 represents data taken from a healthy tree leaf, unabscised in the wild*column 2 is data taken from an analysis of a fallen leaf beneath the same tree*column 3 is an analysis of a lower, unabscised leaf from a cultivated tree which is starting to show typical signs of toxicityAgain, please don't assume that because we got the data that it in any way reflects upon likely success in propagation or cultivation. The existence of this data means that we have more questions to ask, rather than being a party to some conclusion. There may also be a problem with the data collection and analysis itself we haven't recognisedSome of the things we noticed with the soil and leaf data...* The soil has weird levels of lots of things* Those levels are not necessarily reflected in the leaf analysis* The data presented in the leaf analysis could be misleading...high levels of toxicity or deficiency could be incidental byproducts of another tox/deficiency and not directly related to the plants decline in cultivationThis is putting it pretty basically- the level I understand things at The bloke crunching the data knows much more than I, and hopefully he'll be providing a detailed commentary on soil and leaf analysis on the website which should make things clearer [ 06. September 2003, 00:22: Message edited by: Darklight ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklight Posted September 6, 2003 Author Share Posted September 6, 2003 OK I hope this works. I won't post the pics of the soil and leaf data pages here, they're too big. But if you want to download them, go toLeaf data http://www.shaman-australis.com/~pic/Darkl...ight/Apleaf.JPGandSoil data http://www.shaman-australis.com/~pic/Darkl...ight/Apsoil.JPGThanks to Graham Lancaster at the Environmental Analysis Laboratories at Southern Cross UniversityThe analyses were much cheaper than we expected and I'm surprised no-one bothered to do them before. While they're a bit more than a slab of melbourne's, for projects like these its worth passing round the hat for interested parties to contribute.It took a while to work out correlations between the soil and leaf data- in fact I couldn't see any at all- but our TC consultant eventually dug through it to find the most likely suspects [ 13. October 2003, 01:51: Message edited by: Darklight ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torsten Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 Great to see this making it into the public realm. I've kinda been collating the cultivation info for the last few years, but with so many other projects making demands on my time I worry that I might miss a detail that is contributed by someone else.So putting it all on a site is an excellent idea. I will gladly contribute the cultivation data that is not directly relevant to TC to this site as well. I have an inkling that I've cracked the cultivation problems that lead to the year 3 demise, but it will need a lot more people playing around with this plant to confirm this.I hope you will also establish a gallery on that site, so that anyone visiting the area can add current pics of the state of things. This would help all involved immensely.What this site won't be doing *hopefully* will be to advertise the location of the remaining specimens as this would contribute to their decline. Its certainly a matter of treading carefully (and hygienically).One other project I have started is to send seeds to competent growers in various predetermined localities around australia and the world. This will establish a pattern of where the climate and soil is suitable for this species and may provide the possibility of an ex situ population that can be used as a seedbank for rescuing and/or boosting the wild population.Much work to be done... but at least soon it will be shared among a lot more people. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklight Posted September 6, 2003 Author Share Posted September 6, 2003 Torsten: I will gladly contribute the cultivation data that is not directly relevant to TC to this site as well.Oh good https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=&key=ed93ee4b8a158835e0af19ead9c794b11af03de360911f7858b9da338588c45d Do you have any reports on the results of the grafting experiments? We can include those if I can get themI hope you will also establish a gallery on that site, so that anyone visiting the area can add current pics of the state of things.It isn't a site where anyone can contribute anything or we'd be rather overloaded from the look of the response so far. People can submit data or pics, and they'll be acknowledged and copyrighted to the owners if acceptedI may be getting photos of the Mt Buffalo specimens back from a mate after next weekend- snow pics!What this site won't be doing *hopefully* will be to advertise the location of the remaining specimens as this would contribute to their decline.Nope, we won't. It's geared towards getting the questions around Acacia phlebophylla's survival in the wild, and in cultivation, and generating interest and answers. It ain't a map Its certainly a matter of treading carefully (and hygienically).I've asked for a webpage of data on that from someone well qualified- is there some info already he wrote on it? Can't find it...One other project I have started is to send seeds to competent growers in various predetermined localities around australia and the world. Don't- yet? The TC consultant is looking at deeply weird stuff that goes well over my head, cation and anion stuff I don't yet have the skills to analyse. It mightn't just be a toxicity issue. In five or six TC runs I will have much more data on tox/ uptake ( TC is much faster than normal cultivation )and those results will get posted onto the site as well- they should tell us a lot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mescalito Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 Don't know shit fom clay about what you're on about <___base_url___>/uploads/emoticons/default_tongue.png ,but I'll plant some if you donate!Promise :D :D :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonehenge Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 I suppose this will sound like an ignorant question and it is. What does this plant do for us that we should be interested in it? It's good to save a plant just for the sake of saving a plant but if it does something then that's an extra reason. I would assume it has dmt in the roots or other places. What is special about it?Stoney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklight Posted September 6, 2003 Author Share Posted September 6, 2003 There's a bit of info on the webstore here if you do a search from the mainpage. Aside from the endangered status the main reason for me keeping going has been the learning curve- about plant metabolism, chem pathways, and perseverance ( an' a bit of humility, eh spun ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spunwhirllin Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 its special to me for a few reasons i suppose.yes,it does contain dimethyl,the purest source known,or so i've read.yes,it is endangered,which in itself is enough to feel the need and responsability to grow it,as with all endangered plants.i'm sure its for the very reason most people grow lopho's,to preserve something thats is and has been a part of the human experience in one way or another for centuries,and will hopefully continue to fuel spiritual mysteries,insights and bless us with magical wonders.why not bring phlebophylla into the same realm as mentioned above,the power to chemically alter the human mind,that in itself is enough to inspire me.this is why i grow phlebophylla and many other allies,hell,i dont even bother consuming these plants,growing them is enough of a high for me,which makes me consider the fact that they consume more of my energies than i theres,and quite honestly,i feel blessed to actually be in the presence of the phlebophylla's i'm helping along in their journey,even though they stress the hell outta me.plus,its so damn hard to find plants/seeds,thats the consumer/capitalist side of me.who doesn't want something you can't have?spunwhirllin''plant victim'' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklight Posted September 8, 2003 Author Share Posted September 8, 2003 I did a search on chlorine toxicity... and it's a definite candidate for a tox problem:From:http://www.hgic.umd.edu/diagn/needle_s/chl...e_toxicity.htmlScorched leaves may be the result of chlorine toxicity. Chlorine is a micronutrient, essential to plant growth. However, too much chlorine can accumulate in leaf tissue, resulting in leaves with a scorched or burned appearance. Trees with scorched leaves have brown or dead tissue on the tips, margins, or between the veins of the leaf. Leaf tissue may appear bleached, instead of scorched. Leaves may be smaller than usual. They may yellow and drop early. Chlorine toxicity can result from air pollution, in the form of chlorine gas, or from excess chloride in the soil. Go to the page for full details, but check this out! Those of you familiar with the symptoms of the tox may recognise the typical scorch pattern from the species below ( not one of ours ) and for those who don't, I have posted photos below that of one spunwhirlin' so kindly sent me. https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=&key=ed93ee4b8a158835e0af19ead9c794b11af03de360911f7858b9da338588c45d https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=&key=ed93ee4b8a158835e0af19ead9c794b11af03de360911f7858b9da338588c45d https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=&key=ed93ee4b8a158835e0af19ead9c794b11af03de360911f7858b9da338588c45dHope these work...Oh gawd, I'm so excited, someone slap me. We get both the leaf scorch AND the decrease in size over several subcultures in TC. There's no point in getting excited yet- pleeease don't view this as a definite solution. A few runs in tissue culture should give us many more ideas and I'll keep both the forums and the webpage ( when it goes up ) updated with pics [ 08. September 2003, 11:58: Message edited by: Darklight ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklight Posted September 8, 2003 Author Share Posted September 8, 2003 This new data is also in line with the advice from my TC consultant ( bless his 'lil cotton socks ) who said it was prolly linked up with a cation/ anion exchange problem rather than a direct mineral toxicity. We'll be discussing it more in the next few days, keep youse informed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklight Posted September 29, 2003 Author Share Posted September 29, 2003 Got this from a good mate who has been growing a few potted A. phlebophylla in Vic:My little potted specimen, the one that had a spurt of growth and then severe leaf dropping after strong fertilisation about a year ago, wasdown to just two leaves. It was about a foot tall. I was sure it was going to die. Yesterday, I noticed that there is a fresh sprout, at EVERY SINGLE node where a leaf has fallen off. Today they were twice the size, and showing at least two leaves at each node. Moral of the story, don't assume your AP is dead just because it looks like a plucked chicken. Put it in the sunniest, coldest spot, and let it go through a winter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torsten Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 I know it makes little sense, but here is that idea of winter again. and if this is who I think it is then he would also get frost. and frost is what I think this plant needs to complete a growthcycle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklight Posted January 21, 2004 Author Share Posted January 21, 2004 OOoh kay. Back to the salt mines https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=&key=ed93ee4b8a158835e0af19ead9c794b11af03de360911f7858b9da338588c45dMore corro from my mate with a few potted specimens of the phlebos.My little 2+ year old a. phlebophylla is doing GREAT. After losing nearly every single leaf about a year ago, it now has about 30 leaves, many of the leaves are as big as I have ever seen on anyspecimen in the wild. It also has a number of side branches, etc. What have it done? Made sure that it is wateredregularly. Buried the pot in the ground so it doesn't dry out, and so that temperaturesdon't fluctuate. While a soil analysis was done from samples taken around his cultivated plants, it was used as an example of soil taken from around *unhealthy* specimens. Now they seem to be healthy, the question is- is the comparison still relevant? Photos would have been nice, but were unavailable for these specimens, which is a shame because we are relying on anecdotal reports, and while they're from a reliable person it means comparisons can be skewed.I figure as long as we all keep good notes and publicly acknowledge where the figures and interpretations may need re-examining, then its still good science. As Stephen Jay Gould ( an absolute darling of a popular science writer, now deceased https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=&key=ed93ee4b8a158835e0af19ead9c794b11af03de360911f7858b9da338588c45d ) used to say: good science is self correcting https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=&key=ed93ee4b8a158835e0af19ead9c794b11af03de360911f7858b9da338588c45dSpun sweetie? Your plants are exposed to frosts aren't they? How they going? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklight Posted January 21, 2004 Author Share Posted January 21, 2004 Oooh- kay. TC results so far.We still have a week or two to go, but these are the latest pics. Anyone with experience in symptoms of nutrient deficiencies or toxicities? Anyone with pics or comments about new phlebo growth patterns? Love to hear comments.What has happened in 30% of explants is that new growth is red. Bright orange red, not red brown. Too early to tell if the growth will subsequently turn green, as I've heard can ahppen in new growth with this species- we'll know soon enough. But the new red leaf thing is new in my experience in TC. It could indicate we are on the right track- or not- it's just worth noting for the recordsHere are the pics: https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=&key=ed93ee4b8a158835e0af19ead9c794b11af03de360911f7858b9da338588c45d https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=&key=ed93ee4b8a158835e0af19ead9c794b11af03de360911f7858b9da338588c45d https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=&key=ed93ee4b8a158835e0af19ead9c794b11af03de360911f7858b9da338588c45dFor the records the new seedlings were started on standard WPM media- less chlorine than MS. And after germination were placed onto the new media as devised by Jasper ( low phos, added silicon of all things! negligible chlorine ). No plant hormones. I have no photos of earlier experiments using Gamborg's B5 and standard MS full and 1/2 strength, but results from those were initially showing very green first leaves- not this shade of red.If anyone's interested I can put up all the nutrient figures on these medias for proper and meaningful comparison once you've had a think about the results evinced in the pics. I'd love to hear feedback.Like I said, too early to tell. But this is now a community project. Maybe someone out there is a soil scientist, or has experience growing phlebs they think will be relevant to developing protocols, or is an expert in plant deficiency disorders in the acacia. Maybe there's another TC person out there. If we can solve the problem in tissue culture we may be able to identify the problem with cultivated plants dying of apparant toxicity signs as they age [ 22. January 2004, 20:46: Message edited by: Darklight ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklight Posted January 21, 2004 Author Share Posted January 21, 2004 Gawd the pics came out all blurry, sorry guys. Small file but big dimensions. For the record morphology of shoots is so far normal, its the colour is my main interest. I don't think I'll try to re-edit and upload images for sharpness as a result Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DazedSol Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 So for those who have phlebophylla they are currently trying to cultivate:What type of fertilizers are being used? Anyone tried a good organic mix? Worm castings, kelp, etc...nice 'non burning' fertsJust curious..... And to clarify: Has anyone been able to keep cultivated specimen alive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterdragon Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 not that it's terribly relevant but i have some obtusifolias just coming up now and they are that shade of red. maybe it's a stress thing that they get over. i think also the potted acacias may be part of the problem, pots are one of the harshest environments in which to bring up plants. they amplify soil faults ie compaction and lack of drainage, heat stress, water deprivation, etc. i can't think of a single plant that hasn't benefited from being placed into customised garden beds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklight Posted January 23, 2004 Author Share Posted January 23, 2004 Ha! Got the pics down to manageable size! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Cadaver Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Just an observation about germinating these suckers. I've done a few experiemnts with the seeds, i wouldn't call it scientific, but it's relevant. I tried different combinations of nicking, soaking, boiling water, potting mix, garden soil and sandy soil.The best germination results of healthy seedlings coming up was from using boiling water to cover the seeds and then planting in a mixture of soil from under a local acacia and potting mix. I think it's 5 out of 10 seeds for that one at the moment. Hope that might help somone out there trying to grow these trees, at least it's something to build on.cheersd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torsten Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 boiling water definitely gives inferior results to nicking as long as you know how to nick properly and sow the seed immediately after nicking. It is also important to not let the medium get too wet until germination. germination from fresh seed for many acacias will be well in excess of 95%, including for fresh obtusifolia and fresh phlebophylla.The problem with boiling water is that it can easily heat the seed beyond the acceptable temperature. Most acacia seeds have a very narrow margin of temperature that breaks dormancy without killing it. Usually only about 10 deg C!!!To make things worse, most acacias have different temperature requirements for this process.Nicking bypasses all this and with a little bit of practice and the right tool, the incidence of injuring the embryo can be brought down to about 1-2%. The incidence of injury to thumb is a different matter 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Cadaver Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Sorry, I went and checked those seeds again and it was actually 7 out of 10. SOme little mongrel chewed the tops out of 2 of them. I would argue that nicking the seed allows pathogens into the seed, boiling does not. A hard seed coat is not the only type of dormancy exhibited by seeds. Heat treatment would mimic a fire event because of the temperature. By heating the seed, you are telling it that there are favourable conditions for it to grow in, ie. plenty of ash. I've always found that acacias respond well to the boiling water treatment and I don't think phlebophylla would be any different. I've had more losses from nicking (carefully) than i've ever had from boiling water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
folias Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 I both nick and soak. I don't put them in boiling hot water, but wait five minutes or so and then soak them for 12 or so hours. I don't know if they really need to puff up then as an indication they are ready. I water the medium twice a day until they come up...I have experimented with different mediums, just to see for myself, and sandy mediums seem the best. For the next round of obtuses I am growing, I am going to be using 80% sand, and 20% of the soil from around the bottom of obtuses. Interestingly, the soil around the bottom contains little bits of what looks like silica, almost literally like little diamonds...they are very abundant and not present in the soil away from the trees as far as I can tell!I have two phlebs growing which are about nine months old...I have about 200 seeds left and would only grow them in ideal conditions, near Mt Buffalo, perhaps when more research and experimentation has been done...I am aware of other individuals with similar sized seed banks. Mine is only about a year old...I have distributed seeds all over the world...just to see if anyone can grow them, at least most of these people have not got back to me - some of the phlebs have come up and then died very shortly afterwards!Even really experienced super gardeners seem to have a great dea of difficulty with them! Someone by email on behalf of Trout said to give him some, and when I offered them to him in person, he very honestly said he didn't feel qualified or knowledgable enough to grow them!Julian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Cadaver Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 I only boil the kettle and then pour some into a cup containing the seed. I think the swelling is the best indication that the treatment has worked.Yep, they are definently a hard nut to crack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklight Posted February 6, 2004 Author Share Posted February 6, 2004 waterdragon: not that it's terribly relevant but i have some obtusifolias just coming up now and they are that shade of red. maybe it's a stress thing that they get over.You were right, Mr Dragon. They did eventually go green. Never seen it so extreme in acacia culture before. Jasper says it could be a protective mechanism to guard new growth from excessive light until it is hardy- but under fluro tubes at 10% of normal light requirements? And it only happened in seed where embryo was partially excised and roots not allowed to fully form.Ah well, something new every day https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=&key=ed93ee4b8a158835e0af19ead9c794b11af03de360911f7858b9da338588c45dIf there are any soil, ag or chem type ppl interested, I have started a new thread on another phleb culture theory. This one's getting leggy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.