full moon flowering

[strangebrew]

Definately seems to be a correlation between Trichocereus flowering and full moons - outside anyway, the only exceptions I've found so far seem to be glasshouse grown.

Some dates I found -

Ferret's bridgesii flowered around or in the week leading up to the 15th Dec. & Rev must have had some open around the 8th or 9th because he was offering pollen. The full moon was on the 15th.

Flowering on Jan. 12th - full moon 14th.

Flowering on March 10/11 - full moon 14th.

Cereus are known for this as well, so maybe all columnar cacti do?

Edited March 10, 2006 by strangebrew

[zee_werp]

There is definitley a strong aspect of natural cycles and rythms when a trich flowers. A lot of the times mine have flowered has been on or near full moons. However I've also seen them go at seemingly insignificant moon cycles. The full moon thing makes sense from an evolutionary perspective - the flower is nocturnal, and it is white. Highly visible under a full moon, for pollinaters.

A friend has a group of pedros, and at least two of them opened on a new moon, producing naturally pollinated seed.

[foolsbreath]

2006 Full Moons

Month Date

January

Saturday 14th

February

Monday 13th

March

Wednesday 15th

April

Friday 14th

May

Saturday 13th

June

Monday 12th

July

Tuesday 11th

August

Wednesday 9th

September

Friday 8th

October

Saturday 7th

November

Sunday 5th

December

Tuesday 5th

My scop is about to flower, next full moon here is 15th of March, and in tthe last few days the flowers have swelled significantly, Iv'e been waiting a while for this as I picked up some pollen off of Darcy late december i think!!

[strangebrew]

A friend has a group of pedros, and at least two of them opened on a new moon, producing naturally pollinated seed.

When was this? Were they all the same clone?

This year is a weird one as far as full moon's go because the vast majority will be occurring during the day. I how much this affects nature i.e. coral spawning? August is the big one for this and it will occur during the day.

[incognito]

could this be because of the high rate of moth activity during these luminous nights ??

i have been told that moths pollinate some night-flowering plants.

maybee the cacti understand that as the nights become brighter the higher the chances of their flowers being pollinated??just a theory.

[Torsten]

I think most (Tricho-)cereus are bat pollinated and bats don't need light. Or maybe light makes it easier to see the big white bright flowers, which are unlikely to stand out in sonar mode.

[prier]

I think most (Tricho-)cereus are bat pollinated and bats don't need light. Or maybe light makes it easier to see the big white bright flowers, which are unlikely to stand out in sonar mode.

Bats? that's really interesting, I was always under the impression it was moths.

Edited March 10, 2006 by prier

[zee_werp]

As far as I know moths do do most of the pollinating of trichocereus in the wild, as well as bats. But bats get talked about more, because thats way cooler than moths.

It would definitley make sense for moth pollinated plants to have a big white beakon in the night, we've all seen how insects love light at night time.

By the way about my friends cacti, no they weren't the same clone, otherwise they would not have been pollinated...two seperate sets of genetics flowering at the same time. He's got about 20 pedros that flower over summer and each year comes away with 2000+ naturally pollinated seeds.

Edited March 10, 2006 by zee_werp

[zee_werp]

Seems bees are also significant players...thats certainly what pollinated my friends cacti, they are very active around the cacti flowers.

Check this link I just found. I'd love to get the full article. Too bad it's in spanish.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...6&dopt=Abstract

Note in the abstract it says that while the flowers are nocturnal opening most pollinators are diurnal...and that the peak nectar production is 18-24 hours after first opening. So that'd be like the late afternoon-evening the day after it first opens. Interesting stuff. By the way Xylocopa sp. is a bee.

Here's one having a good time last summer

[gusto]

This same topic was discussed several months ago in this thread.

Seems that a couple of data points from then likewise suggest a tendency of the Trichs to flower in the days just before a full moon.

[foolsbreath]

This has been growing all day, won't be long now!!

[foolsbreath]

Just opening

[foolsbreath]

these photos were taken bout 8-30, the lost post at about 7-30 and the one before that at 6-30.

I pollinated 15 minutes before I took the second photo, hope all goes well!

Sorry about the lighting, was going to set up some proper lighting and found I'd taken the plug off for something else

[foolsbreath]

Last ones, Thats about it I think, Do plants have aura's?

[zee_werp]

Nice flower. It would probably pay to try a few different pollination times, to increase the chances of success.

What's up with that aura photo? Was that a 'natural' occurence? It looks kind of cool. Reminded me a bit of this pic I took of a scop flower.

And incase anyone is compiling flowering dates, here's a the only ones of mine I can find definite dates for at the moment.

10/11 January 2005

6/7 February 2005

27/28 January 2006

1/2 February 2006

3/4 February 2006

Edit: Found another one, that fits with your theory:

10/11 February 2006

Edited March 12, 2006 by zee_werp

[strangebrew]

I had a couple open last night as well and 2 the night before.

I think we'll have to make NZ flower's an exception to the rule! 8)

Edited March 11, 2006 by strangebrew

[foolsbreath]

And some today. That one with an aura is a natural occurence, didn't even have a flash or light on that where as I did on the other ones?

Still a fair few buds left, but it might be getting a bit cold here at the next full moon? I saved some pollen for them anyway

[Rev]

I think bat pollinated flowers look different

for example - seen a saguaro flower? very different

short n stubby

https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://phoenix.about.com/library/graphics/saguaroflower.jpg&key=70220bc6746ac94589ab8a269f2f5adf6e1d632f91c0aa336e413d500de501e9

good for a bat to latch onto as it does its job

also here a classic hummingbird flower

https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://www.salviaspecialist.com/blackkn.gif&key=663ac13082fc957bdd810f9f629833f0d7075ade9e9b029ec371c83afacca08e

and a hawkmoth type flower

https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://www.geocities.com/jaminecharneski/fragapaniyellow1wp6.jpg&key=f5cc02af527714bc3a398e041f57a8eb0f7467a6d0dc1f9c615e974a560fb127

carrion Flies

https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://www.botany.wisc.edu/images/greenhouse/Stapeliaflower.jpg&key=cd8b1bb506c5e4501176cb8fa5d32c125399d4b7adba6b65ffb53eb22f4b299b

etc etc

im sure youll be seeing the patterns and can guess what pollinated ur favourites

also just cos bees take the pollen doesnt mean they are good pollinators

i am certain it is moths that xpol the evening trichs

in the morning all the bess, wasps and native bees (trigona carbonaria) come in for an orgy of leftover pollen but they dont help pollination

i think they may be more helpful with the smaller shorter day flowering coloured trich ie bruchii

[strangebrew]

Besides flower shape another argument against bats pollinating Trichocereus is that they smell OK.

A book I have says bat pollinated flower's pretty much always smell bad or rotten to attract them rather than the generally pleasant smelling flower's which attract moth's.

[wandjina]

Sonoran Desert columnar cacti and the evolution of generalized pollination systems

Fleming TH, Sahley CT, Holland JN, Nason JD, Hamrick JL

ECOLOGICAL MONOGRAPHS 71 (4): 511-530 NOV 2001

Abstract: We studied variation in flowering phenology, fruit and seed set, and the abundance of the pollinators of four species of night-blooming Sonoran Desert columnar cacti for up to eight years at one site in Mexico and one year at one site in Arizona. We determined how spatiotemporal variation in plant-pollinator interactions affects the evolution of generalized pollination systems. We conducted pollinator exclusion and hand pollination experiments to document annual variability in pollinator reliability and to determine whether pollination systems were redundant (different species are partially or totally substitutable) or complementary (different species have an additive effect on fruit set). The cacti we studied included three species with generalized pollination systems involving bats, birds, and bees (cardon, Pachycereus pringlei; Saguaro, Carnegiea gigantea; and organ pipe, Stenocereus thurberi) and one specialized moth-pollinated species (senita, Lophocereus schottii). We predicted that the migratory lesser long-nosed bat, Leptonycteris curasoae, is a less reliable pollinator than birds and bees, and that cacti with generalized pollination systems have more variable flowering phenologies than the specialized species.

Annual time of peak flowering and mean size of flower crops were relatively invariant in Saguaro and organ pipe. Time of peak flowering in cardon varied by as much as six weeks, and mean flower crop size varied threefold over six years. In senita, peak flowering varied by as much as 5-8 wk among years. Peak numbers of the nectar bat L. curasoae varied among years, and bat density (0.9/ha) was an order of magnitude lower than that of cactus-visiting birds at both study sites. The abundance of migratory hummingbirds was also highly variable among years.

Pollinator exclusion experiments indicated that bats were major pollinators of cardon, whereas diurnal visitors accounted for most fruit set in Saguaro (except in 1995 when bats were most important) and organ pipe at our Mexican site; honeybees accounted for 64-87% of diurnal fruit set in these species. Annual variation in the contribution to fruit set by bats was substantially higher than that of diurnal pollinators in Saguaro and organ pipe, but not in cardon. There was little geographic variation in the relative importance of nocturnal vs. diurnal pollinators in Saguaro and senita, but bats were much more important for fruit set in organ pipe in Arizona than in Mexico. We generally detected no effect of different pollinators on number of seeds per fruit in any species.

Annual variation in fruit set was lowest in saguaro, the species with the most diurnal pollination system, and highest in organ pipe, the species with the most generalized pollination system. Fruit set was strongly pollen limited only in females of cardon (a trioecious species) and in organ pipe (at both sites). The "missing" pollinators in both species are likely Leptonycteris bats. The pollination systems of saguaro and cardon were partially redundant, whereas that of organ pipe was complementary.

The four species of cactus that we studied occur at the northern geographic limits of Mexican columnar cacti where many vertebrate pollinators are seasonal migrants. In the Sonoran Desert, variation in rainfall and spring temperatures affects timing of flowering and the extent of competition between cacti for pollinator visits and causes the relative importance of particular pollinators, especially Leptonyeteris bats, for fruit set to vary annually. Under such conditions, selection has favored generalized pollination systems (as seen in organ pipe) or shifts from reliance primarily on nocturnal pollinators (as seen in cardon) to reliance primarily on diurnal pollinators (as seen in Saguaro). Nonetheless, as exemplified by the senita-senita moth system, highly specialized pollination mutualisms can also evolve in this habitat in plants that rely on sedentary insects rather than migratory bats and birds for pollination.

Phenological study of Cactaceae in the dry enclave of Tatacoa, Colombia

Ruiz A, Santos M, Cavelier J, Soriano PJ

BIOTROPICA 32 (3): 397-407 SEP 2000

Abstract: A one-year phenological study of three columnar cacti, Stenocereus griseus (Haw) Britton & Rose, Pilosocereus sp., Cereus hexagonus (L.) Mill., and a decumbent cactus Monvillea cf. smithiana (Britton & Rose) Backeberg., was carried out in the Andean arid region of La Tatacoa, Colombia. Pollinators and/or dispersers of the cacti species also were studied monthly, and fecal samples were collected for the identification of pollen and seeds. The flowering of all species was prolonged and showed bimodal, multimodal, or irregular patterns. Fruiting in all species also was prolonged and followed flowering with a lag of less than two months. Although there were no simple correlations between rainfall and flowering or fruiting, flower production during the dry season was higher for S. griseus, while Pilosocererus sp. and C. hexagonus showed higher flower production during the wet season. Fruit production was also seasonal, with higher production during the wet season for S. griseus and C. hexagonus. The patterns of flowering and fruiting in M. cf smithiana showed no relationships with dry and wet seasons. The bats Glossophaga longirostris, Carollia perspicillata, Sturnira lilium, the birds Melanerpes rubricapillus (Picidae) and Mimus gilvus (Mimidae), and moths of the family Sphingidae, were identified as pollinators and/or fruit consumers of these cacti species.

HAWKMOTH POLLINATION IN CEREUS-PERUVIANUS, A COLUMNAR CACTUS FROM SOUTHEASTERN BRAZIL

SILVA WR, SAZIMA M

FLORA 190 (4): 339-343 NOV 1995

Abstract: Pollination by hawkmoths (Sphingidae) is described for Cereus peruvianus (Cactaceae) in southeastern Brazil. The flower presents a dish to bowl-shaped perianth with whitish tepals and a long floral tube. The stamens, arranged like a brush, produce abundant pollen and the long, tube-like style ends in a multi-lobed stigma. Start of anthesis is crepuscular. Anthesis lasts one night. Only little nectar is produced, with ca. 27% sugar concentration. Odour is weak, sweetish and persists throughout the night. Handpollination tests indicate that seed production is dependent on cross-pollination. Honeybees, scarabid beetles, and hawkmoths were observed visiting the flowers, but only the latter seem to be effective pollinators. The sphingids, Agrius cingulatus and Manduca rustica, showed similar visiting behavior, which consisted of hovering, alighting on the perianth, and partially introducing the body into the nectar chamber. Both floral attributes and the morphological/behavioral characteristics of sphingids point to an adaptive trend toward sphingophily in C. peruvianus. This trend is also reflected in the flowering season, which matches the main peak of activity for sphingids at the study areas, and in the ''steady state'' flowering pattern, which promotes cross-pollination visits by these insects.

looks like the insects have it

Edited March 15, 2006 by wandjina

[WitchDoctor]

an unidentified cacti flowered two nights ago (march 15th... full moon) and the smell of the flower attracted among other things, but mostly, large flies. Definitely didnt see any bats, maybe i missed them

[Cptn Insane'O]

the smell of the flower attracted among other things, but mostly, large flies.

Hey WitchDoctor you say large flies but I think you may have actually observed a unusual type of hawkmoth that looks amazingly similar to a large blowfly. That's what I thought they were too one day when I first found one (dead) but the antennae gave it away and I was able to positively identify it quite easily. But that was a couple of years ago and I didnt bother trying to remember the name. Plus I dont think flies are really out at night . I could be wrong. By the way I think Zee-Werp's nice pic above actually contains one of these Blowfly-looking hawkmoths. The more common hawkmoths look quite different. I think they are amazing really I hope no-one has been hitting these little guys with flyspray shame on you ruthless bastards.

[Cptn Insane'O]

No its a bee. But that's also what these strange hawkmoths look like-bees -no sting of course. Check out 'Cephonodes' or 'Bee Hawks' they fly during the day and into the night.

Edited March 17, 2006 by crazyman

[WitchDoctor]

No its a bee. But that's also what these strange hawkmoths look like-bees -no sting of course. Check out 'Cephonodes' or 'Bee Hawks' they fly during the day and into the night.

what state are you from crazyman? I've never heard of such an insect.... and im still positively sure they were flies and not something else

[Cptn Insane'O]

QLD is where I found it but there are various species in all states. The one I found is Cephonodes kingii which is also found throughout SE Asia but I don't know if this is the one in WA but probably very similar anyway. Check this out if you're interested, notice the clear wings...pretty strange for a moth!

http://www.thejunglelook.com/albums/Others...e_Hawk_Moth.jpg

??Were they hovering or actually landed on the flower ?? bye